In this engaging conversation with Helen Sernett, founder of the Sleep Lists podcast, we delve into her journey fueled by a love of reading and a desire to improve sleep. Helen shares her unique approach to calming anxious minds through soothing lists, and we explore how her creative methods can help listeners find rest amidst their busy lives.
Welcome to ‘The Happy Sensory Corner in Special Ed’ – the podcast where we explore the world of sensory enrichment and environmental enrichment in special education.
Through insightful discussions, interviews with experienced special education directors, and inspiring stories of resilience, we uncover the secrets to success in special education. Discover practical strategies, sensory enrichment protocols, and evidence-based practices that can transform the lives of special education students and educators.
Anneke Elmhirst is a relationship coach and former behavior analyst. With her we discuss:
– Ethical concerns with ABA practices and how they can impact neurodivergent children.
– The importance of respect and self-regulation in building healthier relationships between neurodivergent children and their parents.
– How parent education can foster acceptance and long-term well-being for children with special needs.
Anneke shares her journey from behavior analysis to relationship coaching, revealing why she left the ABA field due to ethical concerns and how she now empowers families and individuals to thrive authentically.
Claudie explains the brain’s role in self-regulation and the neurobiology behind stress reduction in children with sensory challenges. She also shares sensory enrichment strategies, including specific games to support emotional regulation and build trust between parents and children.
Episode Highlights
@3:37 – Anneke explains why she transitioned from ABA to coaching, citing the need for more ethical, child-centered practices.
@7:28 – Anneke describes her concerns about the societal pressures in ABA, including an anecdote about pushing children toward “age-appropriate” recreational skills that might not bring them joy.
@13:33 – Anneke challenges the idea that parents must “change” their children to fit societal norms and highlights the importance of fostering acceptance.
@15:23 – Anneke shares practical steps for educating parents about behaviors like stimming and how to help them reframe these actions positively.
@24:06 – Claudie explains how serotonin imbalances contribute to anxiety in nonverbal children and describes sensory enrichment activities, like massage and music, that help children self-regulate.
@38:11 – Claudie shares a touching story about how offering alternatives for a child’s unsafe stimming behavior led to mutual respect between the child and parent.
@38:51 – Anneke highlights why respect is a two-way street and shares how children often communicate respect in unique ways.
@40:52 – Anneke discusses how teaching children to respect boundaries fosters emotional growth and independence.
Finding Calm Amidst the Chaos
In our fast-paced lives, sleep is often sacrificed. Helen struggled with sleep issues due to burnout and health problems.
Her journey involved burnout and perimenopause that disrupted her sleep. “I was completely burned out at work,” she recalls.
Facing insomnia, she sought tools to calm her mind.
Unable to find suitable recordings, Helen created her own, leading to the first episode of Sleep Lists, which has helped many during restless nights.
The Role of a Calming Voice
One of the most striking elements of Helen’s podcast is her voice, which she describes as “incredibly calming and soothing.”
She uses this voice to help others “stop thinking in an alert way and start getting able to go to sleep.”
The significance of her podcasting voice is profound; it’s not merely about the content but the delivery. Helen’s intention is to create a space where listeners can escape their racing thoughts and find comfort.
She acknowledges the challenges of racing thoughts, especially at night.
“What a great time to think about those things at ten o’clock at night when I’m trying to go to sleep,”
she reflects.
“I just needed a calming, loving, soothing voice to say something really boring.”
This insight highlights the importance of distraction in overcoming insomnia. Instead of fighting her thoughts, Helen found a way to gently redirect them.
For many, the act of winding down is a battle against an overactive mind. Helen’s approach offers a solution: a soothing voice that interrupts the cycle of anxious thoughts.
“I created that podcast for myself,” she states, and in doing so, she created a resource that has helped others find peace in their own lives. The love of reading that inspired her journey also fuels her desire to share calming narratives that resonate with listeners.
Understanding the Science of Racing Thoughts
The science behind why our minds race at night is multifaceted and complex. Claudie, Mendability’s chief science officer, sheds light on this phenomenon.
“During the day, we see, we listen, we move, and that alone keeps our brain quite busy to keep us alive,”
she explains.
“However, when we lay down to sleep, our minds are suddenly free from distractions, leading to an influx of thoughts.”
This transition can be particularly challenging for individuals dealing with mental health issues like anxiety or depression. Claudie notes, “This is the time where the brain has nothing else to do,” which can exacerbate feelings of unease. For many, this is when worries and stressors come to the forefront, making it difficult to find rest.
Furthermore, the connection between mental health and sleep cannot be overlooked. Claudia points out that for those experiencing chronic depression, “it tells me your serotonin level was very low.” This biological aspect underscores the importance of addressing mental health when tackling sleep issues. Understanding the interplay between our mental state and our ability to sleep can inform how we approach our nighttime routines.
Practical Tips for Finding Rest
Incorporating practical strategies into your nighttime routine can significantly enhance your ability to find rest.
- One effective method is to establish a calming pre-sleep ritual that signals to your brain that it’s time to wind down. This could include reading, journaling, or practicing mindfulness meditation.
- Another helpful technique is to limit screen time before bed. The blue light emitted by devices can interfere with the production of melatonin, the hormone responsible for regulating sleep. Instead, consider listening to calming podcasts or audiobooks, such as those provided by Helen’s Sleep Lists, to create a soothing atmosphere conducive to sleep.
- Creating a comfortable sleep environment is also crucial. Ensure your bedroom is dark, quiet, and cool to promote restful sleep. Investing in a quality mattress and pillows can also make a significant difference in your sleep quality.
The Science Behind a Calming Voice
The soothing quality of Helen’s voice plays a critical role in her listeners’ ability to relax and drift into sleep. Research indicates that soft, gentle, and loving tones can significantly aid in the release of serotonin, a neurotransmitter that promotes feelings of well-being and happiness.
Claudie emphasizes,
“There is no medication to improve the release and the function of serotonin. There are medications that mimic and help for a short period, but they come with a neurological price.”
This highlights the importance of natural methods, such as using a calming voice, to help listeners manage their anxiety and improve their sleep quality.
Helen’s approach combines her soothing voice with calming music, creating an environment conducive to relaxation. “I put calming music underneath it too, and I think that helps as well,” she shares. This combination not only provides a distraction from racing thoughts but also creates a space where the brain can release serotonin, allowing listeners to unwind.
Unusual Lists: Creativity Meets Sleep
One of the most intriguing aspects of Helen’s podcast is the variety of lists she creates. She often generates unique and unexpected lists that serve as a calming tool.
“The strangest one, but actually one of the ones that I enjoyed the most, was a list of phrases that have something to do with sleep in the English language,” she recalls.
For example, Helen took the idiom “as boring as watching paint dry” and expanded it into a delightful exploration of beige paint colors. “What if that paint was even a boring color, like beige? I came up with a list of hundreds of names for the paint color beige,” she explains. This whimsical approach showcases her creativity while effectively diverting listeners’ minds from stressors.
Her lists are not just random collections; they are thoughtfully curated to engage and soothe. “Most of my lists are in a very thoughtful order,” Helen notes. “If you’re the type of person who needs to know what’s coming next, you get a sense of what’s coming.” This structured approach helps listeners feel in control, which can reduce anxiety and promote relaxation.
Sensory Connections: Enhancing the Experience
The sensory aspect of Helen’s lists is another layer that enhances their effectiveness. Claudia explains,
“It’s a mental image of memories that you try to attach to those words.”
This connection allows listeners to engage their imagination, which can keep intrusive thoughts at bay.
Helen acknowledges that while she does not explicitly focus on sensory components, they naturally arise in her lists. “I sometimes imagine them,” she admits. Her lists often include references to nature, such as different species of grasses or types of sheep, which can evoke vivid imagery and sensory experiences for listeners.
This sensory engagement is crucial. It fosters a mental escape from the stresses of the day, allowing listeners to focus on peaceful thoughts instead. “When you’re listening, you can’t help but see those images,” Claudie adds, emphasizing the power of visualization in achieving relaxation.
Tailoring Lists for Varied Interests
One of the remarkable aspects of Helen’s work is her ability to tailor lists to different interests and preferences. “I have had complaints about my nature-based lists and requests for more nature-based lists,” she shares, illustrating her commitment to meeting the diverse needs of her audience.
She acknowledges that different individuals find comfort in different types of lists. “Some people who deal with autism find that lists about science or Pokémon are particularly calming,” Helen explains. By varying her content, she ensures that everyone can find something that resonates with them.
The goal is to create lists that are interesting enough to hold attention but not so stimulating that they provoke anxiety. “It’s interesting but not important,” Helen describes her approach. This balance allows listeners to engage with the material without feeling overwhelmed.
Rewards of Creating Sleep Lists
For Helen, the most fulfilling aspect of creating sleep lists is the positive impact they have on her listeners. “The reason why I do it is that people keep on saying that they’re benefiting from it,” she states. Hearing feedback from listeners who have struggled with sleep issues and found relief through her lists motivates her to continue her work.
She recounts stories of individuals who have experienced significant improvements in their sleep quality. “I’ve had sleep issues ever since I experienced combat, and I had a good night’s sleep last night,” she recalls receiving feedback from a listener. Such testimonials serve as powerful reminders of the importance of her work.
Helen’s passion for learning also fuels her creativity. “I find it fascinating to research different topics and create lists based on what I discover,” she shares. This continuous exploration not only enriches her content but also keeps her engaged and motivated to provide valuable resources for her audience.
Unexpected Requests: The Quirky Side of Sleep Lists
When you think of a podcast dedicated to sleep, you might not expect it to delve into the realm of unusual requests. However, Helen Sernett’s journey with the Sleep Lists podcast has brought some surprising inquiries her way. One memorable request came from a cousin who wanted a list of classic Lebanese dishes.
“All I could think of is, oh my god. That’s gonna make tons of people hungry,” she recalls.
This light-hearted moment shows how food can evoke strong memories but also highlights a significant challenge in her mission: hunger is the enemy of sleep. Helen wisely decided against creating that list, recognizing that discussing delicious meals could inadvertently keep listeners awake, craving snacks late into the night.
Instead, her focus remains on soothing content that calms the mind rather than stirs appetites. This thoughtful approach ensures her podcast remains a sanctuary for listeners seeking rest and relaxation.
Collaboration Dreams: Who Would Helen Team Up With?
When asked about potential collaborations, Helen’s enthusiasm shines through. She expresses a desire to work with sponsors interested in product lists that promote better sleep. “I think that would be really fun for me,” she says, emphasizing her willingness to blend engaging content with practical resources.
Yet, her dream collaboration isn’t limited to brands. Helen has a particular interest in working with children to understand their unique perspectives on sleep. “I would love to know what they’re interested in and what they think might make a good list,” she shares. This focus on engaging young minds underscores her commitment to creating content that resonates across age groups.
Her innovative idea of gathering a focus group of elementary school children could yield fascinating insights. Imagine lists inspired by their interests, such as dinosaurs or trains, tailored specifically for those who struggle with sleep. This approach highlights the importance of inclusivity and variety in her work, ensuring that all listeners can find something comforting and enjoyable.
The Importance of Authenticity in Voice
Helen’s voice is more than just a soothing sound; it carries an authenticity that resonates deeply with her audience. “I’m your friend. I’m here to help,” she explains, emphasizing her sincere intention to provide support rather than dictate solutions.
Her voice is a tool for connection, creating a safe space where listeners can feel understood. “I have the pace and a tenor in my voice that I think is very authentic,” she adds, noting that this authenticity is key to her podcast’s success. It’s not just about relaxation; it’s about fostering a genuine relationship with her audience.
However, not every listener finds her voice comforting. Helen candidly shares an experience with a former colleague who felt her voice sounded too much like work-related instructions. “I was like, I’m so sorry. This isn’t gonna work for you, is it?” This illustrates that while her voice may not appeal to everyone, it is crucial for creating a specific atmosphere that many find calming and relatable.
Sleep Deprivation: A Common Misconception
Helen often encounters individuals who believe their sleep patterns are adequate, despite clear signs of sleep deprivation. “I get five hours of sleep at night. That’s all my body needs,” is a common refrain she hears. Yet, she knows that this mindset is misleading.
“It is so unlikely that you’re the point two percent marginalized… that actually have enough sleep happening at five hours,” she states. This misconception reflects a broader cultural attitude that undervalues the importance of sleep. Helen’s insights challenge the narrative, urging listeners to reconsider their sleep habits and recognize the signs of fatigue.
The reality is that most adults require more than seven hours of sleep for optimal functioning. “Anything less than seven is generally considered sleep deprivation,” she explains. This knowledge is vital, especially as society begins to prioritize sleep as a critical component of overall health.
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Transcript
Sure! Here’s the entire section of the transcript, starting from where you welcome the audience and ending at the goodbye, with the filler words removed.
Kim – Mendability:
Helen, you had severe sleep struggles and health challenges. Is that part of your journey to creating your podcast?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
Yeah, for sure. I was completely burned out at work. I was also a pyramid apostle, which contributed to burnout, depression, anxiety, joint issues, and hypertension. Everything was intermingled, but sleep was a major issue. I had pretty significant insomnia where multiple times a week, I just wouldn’t sleep. Other times, it took a long time to fall asleep. I couldn’t calm my brain enough. I wanted to sleep like I did before. It was making me crazy, exacerbating my health and mental health issues. I focused on getting better sleep, but the tools I had weren’t working. I wanted a recording of someone calmly counting from 1 to 500 so I didn’t have to do it in my head. I couldn’t find one, so I recorded it myself, and that became the first episode of Sleep Lists.
Kim – Mendability:
I hate listening to my own voice. How did it feel to listen to yours?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
My Sleep Lists podcast voice is calming and soothing, so I don’t mind it at all.
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
I see. It’s called ASMR, isn’t it?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
Well, I don’t try to stimulate that tingly feeling in people’s brains like some sleep podcasts do. My intent is to help people stop thinking in an alert way and start going to sleep by calming their thoughts, so they’re not focused on all the things they need to do or didn’t get done, or in my case, what depression was telling me was wrong with me.
Kim – Mendability:
I want to ask some questions because I’m thinking, why does our brain start racing and agonizing over things at night? Why does this happen at the worst possible moment?
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
Well, a lot of people we work with have ADHD or chronic depression. During the day, our brain is busy keeping us alive by processing what we see, hear, and do. But when we lie down, turn off the lights, and sound, all that energy is available for thinking. In your case, Helen, you mentioned depression, so your serotonin level was low. Serotonin helps us relax, and it’s key for sleep. Depression equals low serotonin, which equals no sleep. Your voice helps people relax and release serotonin, which is why it works.
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
I also add calming music underneath my voice, and that helps too. It’s something I can’t do for myself when I’m hyper-fixating or ruminating, so this gives me a tool.
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
That’s brilliant. You developed something that works, and it matches the science.
Kim – Mendability:
I wanted this episode to be lighthearted, so I have to ask, what’s the weirdest list you’ve ever created for your podcast?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
I think one of the strangest ones I’ve done was listing hundreds of names for the color beige. I was thinking about the phrase “as boring as watching paint dry” and took it a step further by creating a list of boring beige shades. I found it interesting, though. Beige names often relate to dairy products, cheeses, creams, and wood.
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
I imagine falling asleep to that.
Kim – Mendability:
I’m thinking of synesthesia—when one sense is connected to another, like seeing colors when you hear sounds.
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
Yeah, it happens with autistic people.
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
Right, they can smell colors.
Kim – Mendability:
That’s what I was getting at. Claudie, what would be a good list for people with those types of sensory experiences?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
What I’ve found is that people with autism like different kinds of lists. Some like a science-based list, like the periodic table, while others like something fun, like a list of Pokémon names. It depends on the person, which is why I try to keep my lists varied.
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
How long is your list before the person falls asleep?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
Most lists are 25 to 45 minutes long. Some are shorter, around 15 minutes, and others are over an hour. If someone is still awake by the end, I say something like, “Sorry, you’re still awake. You can replay the list or think of the rest in your mind.”
Kim – Mendability:
I fall asleep watching Star Trek: Enterprise. It’s soothing… I’ve never finished an episode…
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
A lot of people don’t like Enterprise because it’s not exciting, but maybe its purpose was to help people sleep.
Kim – Mendability:
Maybe that was the secret. Claudie, why are Helen’s lists working so well?
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
It gives people control over their thoughts. It’s interesting enough to focus on and keeps intrusive thoughts away. While listening, serotonin is released, and the person relaxes enough to fall asleep. It makes a lot of sense.
Kim – Mendability:
It’s interesting that you chose a list of colors for beige. Claudie, is it important for there to be a sensory component to the list?
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
I’d ask Helen—when you listen to the list, do you visualize the beige shades?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
I do sometimes. I also have lists for different types of grasses, sheep species, and things like that. I do a little research for those. It’s trivia, not life-changing, but I enjoy learning something new. The internet helps me satisfy my curiosity, and some of that becomes a list later.
Kim – Mendability:
What have you found to be the most rewarding part of creating Sleep Lists?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
The most important thing is that it helps people. I’ve gotten reviews from veterans who say it was the first time in years they had a good night’s sleep.
Claudie Pomares (Mendability):
That’s wonderful. You’re doing this to help, not for glory.
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
Yes, my college wrote about my podcast and called it “the most boring podcast in the world,” which is what it’s supposed to be.
Kim – Mendability:
Have you received any unusual requests?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
One of my cousins asked me to do a list of classic Lebanese dishes, but all I could think was how hungry it would make people. I also didn’t want to mispronounce the Arabic words, so I didn’t do it.
Kim – Mendability:
If you could collaborate with anyone, living or dead, to create a sleep list, who would it be?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
I’d love to work with a sponsor who has an inventory list or collaborate with kids who have trouble sleeping. I’d like to know what lists would help them.
Kim – Mendability:
What’s the funniest or strangest question someone has asked you about sleep?
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
The funniest thing is how many people think they don’t have sleep problems but then reveal that they do. People tell me they get five hours of sleep a night and think that’s enough, but anything less than seven hours is generally considered sleep deprivation.
Kim – Mendability:
I feel like many of our listeners are parents who want seven hours of sleep but can’t because their kids are awake. Hopefully, they’ll try the Sleep Lists podcast.
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
Naps count, too. If you’re not getting seven hours all at once, naps help. We do the best with the tools we have.
Kim – Mendability:
It was so nice to meet you, Helen. I’m glad we did this podcast together.
Helen Sernett (Sleep Lists):
Likewise. I hope more people discover your tool. If anyone has ideas for the next sleep list, send them my way.